Sophie: Hi, I’m Sophie-Marie Odum, Lifestyle Magazine’s editor.
Sam: And I’m Samantha Renke, broadcaster and disability rights campaigner. And welcome to The Motability Lifestyle Pod. In this podcast, we invite our friends from the disability community into the studio for a conversation about how we can all live our best life, particularly when navigating a disabling world.
Sophie: Before we get started on the first episode of Series Two, excitement! Just a reminder that if you’re listening to us in your car, you can also watch the full episode on YouTube, complete with captions and British Sign Language. Also, make sure to click Subscribe or Follow wherever you’re listening, so you’ll be the first to know about each new episode. Sam. We’re back!
Sam: We are back indeed. It’s been a while, hasn’t it?
Sophie: Since Christmas?
Sam: Since Christmas! I have missed you.
Sophie: Oh, I’ve missed you too.
Sam: But we are in a rather pink boudoir. We’ve been upgraded. Is that the right word?
Sophie: We can use upgrade.
Sam: Upgraded! Not that the space wasn’t glorious. However, I am feeling very posh. I am feeling quite boujee. It is beautiful. How have you been? What have you been up to? Tell me everything in seconds.
Sophie: I can’t believe it’s already April. Busy. Busy busy busy magazine. If you haven’t read the latest issue. It’s out now. Either the Feb or the May issue, but lots of exciting people I’ve been speaking to and interviewing. So yeah, great stuff.
Sam: Amazing. Well, of course, I think last time I was about to move to Lancashire, which has gone really well, but having renovating a house, you know, the term ‘adulting’, like being an adult. I’m in my 30s. I’m not going to tell you exactly how old. I’m in my 30s and I thought I was like, pretty adult, you know, living in London for years independently. I’d thought I’d got it all down. Renovating a bungalow is a nightmare, and I actually had a car crash into the front of my house the other week.
Sophie: Oh my gosh, how does that even happen?
Sam: I don’t know, we still don’t know. It was ironic because we were supposed to be in the studio recording together and my lovely agent Andrew, who was like, “I can’t believe that you’ve had to cancel a podcast about cars because a car has smashed into the front of your house.” No, but it’s lovely. I’m already feeling a lot more zen.
Sophie: Good.
Sam: One of the reasons I moved was London is beautiful, but it really impacted negatively on my mental health, my anxiety. So being closer to family, you know, close friends and, you know, the cats are loving it. Obviously, Lola and Bruno with the garden. So yeah, things are really, really nice for me and I just feel very grateful that I get to come back to London to be around my podcast family.
Sophie: Yes. Glad to be back in the studio with you, Sam, but what you just said actually leads really nicely onto our first reasons to be cheerful story today. So Natural England, the government’s advisory body on the natural environment in England, has shown a commitment to providing inclusive, outdoor recreational opportunities for all. Its latest report, in collaboration with the RIDC, focuses on improving access to nature for people with visual impairments and highlights the necessary steps to make environments accessible to everyone. And they call the environments green and blue spaces so green for landscape and blue spaces for like rivers and lakes because it’s really good for your mental health, which you’ve just nodded towards. So.
Sam: Yeah. And it’s so interesting, isn’t it? Because ultimately nature’s nature, you know, we shouldn’t really get too involved in it in the sense of taking away from its natural state. But for me, you know, having inclusive spaces is so important, particularly when your independence can be impacted by your disability, perhaps. And, honestly, I- Just opening my doors now and hearing birds instead of, you know, perhaps still intoxicated people coming out of the pub, you know, or from the nightclub round the corner. It has had a profound impact. But I think, you know that this- That’s a beautiful story, but it is just the beginning, because I think for me, you know, being in a space is one thing, but being able to get to that space is another thing, which is what Motability is all about. Thinking about, you know, the holistic, energy around, you know, inclusive- An inclusive world.
Sophie: So I’ve got some stats, actually, on the benefits of being outdoors because the mental and physical benefits of spending time in nature and being outdoors are well documented. It improves mood, exercise. But according to the People and Nature Survey for England, 94% of adults who had visited a green and natural space in the previous days agreed that spending time outdoors was good for their physical health and 92% agreed it was also good for their mental health. Plus, 82% of adults agreed that being in nature made them very happy. And we also touched upon this in the latest issue of Lifestyle with the February issue, which can be found on MotabilityFoundation.org.uk. We spoke about gardening as a hobby and beyond it
being a hobby it’s also good- Just exercise and being outdoors and spending time in nature and having something to care for and look after. And we spoke to Sue Kent, who’s from BBC Gardeners World.
Sam: Nice.
Sophie: Yeah, we just spoke about the holistic benefits of gardening beyond just being a hobby.
Sam: I think that’s- I mean, where I used to live, we had a communal terrace and it was beautiful. One of the tenants had, you know, green fingers. And he absolutely maintained, this- It was an urban jungle, so to speak. But absolutely, I have invested and I didn’t think I would. Maybe it’s my age. I have actually invested more into creating an accessible garden than I have on my interior, and I never thought I would do that. But now I do have the luxury of having a small garden. You know, it has- It is something that I definitely want to invest time and money into it. Although the North West has really rubbish weather, I’m not going to lie. So-
Sophie: Water’s good for plants!
Sam: Oh it’s good for plants! So yeah, it’s going to be interesting. I don’t think I’m going to be one of them people. Oh well we’ll see, you know, like with all these like carrots sprouting up everywhere or you know, like broccoli and we’ll see, watch it. You’ll be- Give me 18 months and I’ll be coming in and going, “I’ve got a beehive and I have now got a goat!” Don’t tempt me. You know, I’ve got a goat fetish.
Sophie: Oh, you do have a goat fetish.
Sam: Yes, I love that.
Sophie: I think it’s time for our guest now. I think we’ve spoken about gardening enough. Today, who do we have?
Sam: We have the phenomenal Phyllida Swift who is a close and dear friend of mine. So we’re going to invite her to join us in one second but first of all. We need to do a quick “magicaroo.” Is that a word- “Magicaroo?” It is a word now and we’re going to be putting some headphones on aren’t we?
Sophie: Today we welcome to the podcast the incredible Phyllida Swift. Phyllida is an appearance activist, a model and the CEO of Face Equality International, which is an alliance of worldwide NGOs working to end the discrimination of people with disfigurements. Phyllida became passionate about reshaping the negative narrative and stereotypes affecting people with facial differences after a car accident left her with a facial scar in 2015. Plus, Phyllida is also Sam’s sushi friend. Welcome to the pod, Phyllida.
Phyllida: Thank you so much for having me.
Sam: But on a serious note. On a serious note, we get to talk a lot of really interesting subjects, don’t we, when we do go out for sushi? Because I am absolutely in love. I’m in awe of you. I’ve got a bit of a fangirl crush on you. Don’t know whether that comes across when we are eating our avo rolls. You know, and our katsu curry. But I adore you and I am always your biggest cheerleader. But what have you been up to as of late? How have you been? It’s been a while.
Phyllida: It has been a while. Yes. So life. Both in work and in personal life is never dull. So running a charity, in this climate in particular, is very difficult. But I very much enjoy the challenge. So, yes, Face Equality International as of 2022 is a UK charity. We are growing as of this month. We’ve gone from two members of the team to four. So we’re currently recruiting at the moment and we’ve got Face Equality Week just around the corner, which will run from the 13th to the 19th of May. So yeah, it’s busy.
Sam: But that’s what you’re born to do. Because you are someone who can.
Phyllida: Oh yeah I thrive- I yeah- I thrive in- I thrive in the chaos. I absolutely thrive in the chaos. I need- I need it to keep me motivated.
Sophie: And that’s a good thing because you certainly are very busy. So as a starting point Phyllida let’s talk terminology. Do you prefer the term disfigurement or facial differences? Because I understand facial difference is a preferred term but the word disfigurement is still very much used as everyday language.
Phyllida: Yeah. So me personally, I absolutely reclaim the term disfigurement. I think there are definitely parallels with, I guess, the polarity of like disability and disabled as a word. I think, definitely there is a preference for disfigurement over disfigured, but me personally, I think it’s not the word that we need to focus on. It’s the, you know, the stigma attached to the word is something that we just need to move aside and focus on the larger issues at hand which are the discrimination and the injustice that goes hand-in-hand with looking different in a society that prizes a very narrow perception of beauty. So, if someone is unclear of the preferred terminology, again, that lots of parallels with other, you know, marginalised groups, is ask someone. It’s all about the intention behind, you know, not being afraid of getting it wrong, person first language or just, you know, self-identification, allowing someone to say, “I have facial scarring, I have a facial difference. I have a visible difference,” because it’s constantly evolving as well. And where Face Equality International is, is international. It just- It changes from geography to geography, from person to person. If you’re unsure, I would say yes. Facial difference is more of a neutral term, but problem is, no one really knows what that is yet like the general public don’t really know what a facial difference means. If you Google it, it probably won’t come up. If you google visible difference then this like Elizabeth Arden cream comes up. So we’re, you know, both coining a new term, coining, you know, a movement at the same time trying to get the general public to understand what we mean. So, for that reason, I do not shy away from using the term disfigurement. And also it’s what gives people rights. It’s what’s enshrined in the UK Equality Act here. Under the definition of disability. So if it gives someone rights then I will not shy away from using it.
Sam: I think that’s really powerful, what you said. It’s all about autonomy. You know, disabled people aren’t a monolith. What, there’s one billion disabled people globally. We’re not all going to decide on what language we should use, because that would just be ridiculous. And, you know, for allies out there who think that, you know, they don’t want to approach someone with a disability because they are too uncomfortable or, you know, don’t want to put their foot in it around language. I think that’s beautiful. You know, if in doubt, just ask, you know, ask in a compassionate human-to-human way, don’t go “Oi you! What’s up with you then love?” You know, which I’m sure a lot of disabled people have random strangers come up to them and say, but it’s interesting that dynamic between our legislation and language. So even if someone really does prefer, you know, terms like facial difference, you know, in order for them to access services via the Equality Act and actually be protected under the law, they will have to subscribe to the terminology that is there. So it can- It can be- It is problematic. But it shouldn’t have to be. And I think the point you made that these are the semantics at the end of the day. The bigger issues are about, you know, equality, equity and how to make a much more safe and inclusive world. So yeah, I absolutely love your point there. That’s- Yes! Yes! This is why we get people like Phyllida on the show because she’s got all the good stuff. I always find it really interesting.
Phyllida: Well, I’ve spent yeah- I’ve spent a lot of time umming and ahhing and moving in different directions. And this is- This is the whole point it constantly evolves. The moment we all decide on a consensus, then something changes. So let’s just focus on, you know, what we all want at the end of the day, which is what you say, a more equitable world.
Sam: But isn’t that-It’s quite beautiful that, you know, constant moving because what it actually says is we have control over our lives. Whereas, 10, 20 years ago it was predominantly dictated by non-disabled people. So I always say, instead of being fearful of the ever-changing landscape of the disability community, actually really embrace it. I always find it really interesting. Obviously I was born with a disability. I’ve never known life without being a wheelchair user, without having osteogenesis imperfecta. It is absolutely in my blood through and through and I wouldn’t change that for the world. So I always find it really fascinating, I guess, if that’s the right word, maybe not. Interesting when I engage with my wider community and I talk to, you know, people who have acquired their disability. Can you talk to us a bit about that? You know, kind of what happened, how did that transition, you know, feel for you and coming to understand or embrace your new identity if you do, in fact, see your disability as part of your identity now?
Phyllida: Yeah, I echo exactly what you say. I would not change it for the world. It’s part of me. It’s part of who I am. But it was major. I think it was 2015. So, yeah, I got into a car accident. I was supposed to be volunteering in Ghana and on the first full day there we were traveling overnight, which I’m now told you’re not supposed to do in Ghana. And we got into an accident and I came out of that with a whole host of different injuries but the most kind of, I guess, obvious one is that I now have a big scar that runs from the top of my head down to the bottom of my cheek. Had several surgeries where, yeah. Several surgeries. We don’t need to go into the medical details but overnight, I suddenly was this 22 year old woman and I was in my second or third year of university. I was going out, I was putting makeup on. I was doing my hair. I was taking pride in my appearance. And then all of a sudden, I was associated with this thing that I only ever saw in society as something of the mark of a villain or a vulnerable person. Never something desirable, never something beautiful. Something to be ashamed of. Something that people hide away with creams and cover ups. And I then had, because it distinctly affects one side of my face as well, even going back into, you know, negotiate makeup again. It was like there was two sides of my face and I just found it incredibly difficult to feel like myself because I no longer looked like myself. And at the time, there was very little representation of people with scars in the public eye. I’m pleased to say that it’s changed a lot now. But beyond the likes of Katie Piper, I just didn’t know anybody. I didn’t have that positive role model and being the control freak that I am, I instantly reached out to the likes of The Katie Piper Foundation, Changing Faces UK, trying to seek, I guess, a sense of community, trying to control and turn the situation into a positive in some way, shape or form. And I’m sure we’ll delve into it at a later point. You know, all of the control freak tendencies and the coping mechanisms that can be both healthy and not so healthy. But I, in terms of being part of the wider umbrella of disability and the facial difference community, it is something that, again, as a coping mechanism, best thing I ever did, reaching out, finding people that get it. Finding people that you can cut through, you know, and have a decent conversation with on a level who understand and that is what I would say to anyone is community is amazing. And it doesn’t have to be that you connected with hundreds of thousands of people. But if you have a couple of people in your- In your network that you can reach out to that get it. That is a beautiful thing.
Sophie: So from there, Phyllida, when you- When you found like your community, how did you get involved in Face Equality International? And can you tell us a bit about the charity and its impact?
Phyllida: Of course. Yeah. So as a- I think I mentioned Changing Faces previously. That was one of the first charities that responded to me. And I said, “I want to get out there, I want to do something. I want to share my story.” And they- And this was like 2 or 3 months after the accident and I had a call with, you know, one of the clinical people and they said, “Are you all right? Like, what? Why are you doing this? Do you not need to go away and heal?” And I think I healed through that process. So I did everything I volunteered from, you know, in the office. I did challenge events for them, fundraisers, put on a comedy event with Adam Pearson once, that was hilarious. I then was scrolling through Instagram one day after I’d graduated university, where I did model making, by the way, which I have never used since. Yeah. Scrolling through Instagram one day and a job came up for a Campaigns Officer at Changing Faces, and I was like, sure, I can do that. I can turn my hand to campaigns. Yeah. Campaigns Officer it was and I took that on. I don’t know why they trusted me to do it, but I then got promoted within that role and clearly did very well. I worked on some incredible things, worked on a hate crime campaign which is one of my, still to this day, proudest moments of my career. It’s funded by the Home Office and yeah, I did a couple of Face Equality Weeks there, and then, came to the decision that it was about time for me to leave and I immediately got poached by the Founder of Changing Faces who, at the time, was setting up Face Equality International. So taking everything he’d learned from 25 years of running Changing Faces UK, which, if you don’t already know, they provide psychosocial support to people with appearance affecting conditions. But they also pioneered the Face Equality campaign. So the societal piece, the changing attitudes and laws in society. So I got poached by James and worked very closely with him for about 18 months, running the communications for Face Equality International. And then he sadly died in 2020, at which point no one knew what was going to go on with the future of the charity. There was no plan as to what they would do in the event of his death and I threw my name into the hat to say, “I think I could run it. I’ll see whether they try again- See whether they trust me.” And they did. And it’s been nearly three and a half years and we’ve grown incrementally. I haven’t tanked it yet and we’re doing lovely, lovely things all the time. The only United Nations Accredited NGO into the Convention On The Rights Of Persons With Disabilities, representing the global facial difference community. So that’s a biggie. We’ve run I think this is our sixth International Face Equality Week coming up. We’ve got some really cool partnerships coming up with a couple of commercial brands that I’m excited to be able to shout about. So it’s cool and I love it. And I couldn’t see myself doing anything else.
Sam: Phyllida always underplays things. Whenever we go, I’m like, “What have you been up to?” And she just randomly pops these huge, big achievements into the conversation and I’m like, “Hang on a minute let me just backtrack. Don’t start tucking into your sushi again, I need to know more. You mentioned that it’s going to be Face Equality Week tell me more about that. Is there going to be a theme because like International Day of Persons With Disability, there’s often a theme. Tell us more and tell us how our listeners or our viewers, how they can get involved and reach out?
Phyllida: Of course, so 13th to the 19th of May. This year’s theme is art as a tool for social good, and the tagline is ‘my face is a masterpiece.’ So we’ve taken inspiration from the International Women’s Day campaign where there is always some sort of like social media activation. One of the things we’re asking people to do is, if they can, jump on social media and say, “My face is a masterpiece because…” And also, if they can use their hands to kind of create one of these frames around that face or even grab like a physical frame, and just use it as an opportunity to share your story, whether you’re an ally or whether you have lived experience yourself. Let’s flood social media with some positive, celebratory, like highly creative stories surrounding life with a facial difference but there’s some other cool stuff going on as well. So collaborations with a couple of artists that either have lived experience or depict it in their artwork. Often we see this art is only ever like displayed in a medical context when actually we believe that we should be celebrating the diversity of the human face and the beauty within that across artistic spaces as well. We’ve got a whole host of different materials from schools packs to stuff for businesses to do. Of course, if people want to fundraise, they can do that during Face Equality Week. So yeah, it’s going to be busy and there’s ways to get involved. As I said, whether you’re an ally, whether you have lived experience or not, hit up Face Equality International and you’ll find a lot of resources.
Sam: Absolutely! Because you know, some people aren’t that way on their journey yet and, you know, posting on social media just doesn’t- Doesn’t feel comfortable yet. There are many other ways that they can get involved, maybe a bit more behind-the-scenes, which is- Which is fantastic.
Sophie: I’m going to get involved.
Sam: Yeah. What you going to do?
Sophie: Don’t put me on the spot. Phyllida, talking about the disability act and disfigurement being recognised as a disability. I know you’ve talked about this before, just tell us why it’s so important just for those people who are listening, who may not understand why is considered a disability or why it should be. Can you just talk us through that, please?
Phyllida: Yeah. So it’s actually something that our founder, James Partridge, was pretty instrumental in securing back in the day was the severe disfigurement provision which falls under disability in the UK Equality Act. There’s also reference in America in the ADA. There’s something in Australia as well, and we’re actually embarking on a piece of research at the moment to figure out what other disability laws or equality laws across the world say about disfigurement. If anything. Because, I won’t delve too much into the nitty gritty of it. But the problem currently is that disfigurement across the world is not universally regarded as a disability either legally or socially and nor should it have to be. This is the issue. I think ultimately our vision and this is in our kind of vision and mission statement. This is an equality issue within itself. So this is a community. This is- This should be regarded as an equality issue, disfigurement, facial difference. We believe it is deserving of space and we see that in case law across the globe, in the UK and in the US, because someone’s disfigurement is often regarded as solely a cosmetic issue and so often discrimination or social security, you know, is so reliant on someone’s ability to work, someone’s ability to, yeah, rock up and use the workplace and that’s really problematic because essentially it disregards that social model whereby someone is limited by attitudes, attitudinal barriers. So what limited case law there is in the UK and the US, it often is saying that someone is denied disability status or a discrimination claim is disregarded on the grounds that someone isn’t seen as disabled enough. Yeah. And that severity- So a severe disfigurement is regarded as a disability in the UK. What even- Severe in what sense? There’s no- There’s no explanation of that. It’s all built up over time through case law. And again it’s very medical model. It’s very that classic physical impairment model which doesn’t take into account the fact that okay, so a third of the people-A third of people here in the UK, with a disfigurement have been a victim of a hate crime, for example, often they’ll go to report and they’ll say, “I have a disability,” and it will be- It will be disregarded because a police officer or someone won’t understand that a disfigurement is actually legally a disability. So the answer is- Is
fundamentally flawed at this point in time. We want to operate on kind of like a “yes and” model. So we believe that, across the globe, disfigurement should be recognised as a disability in terms of a social model, the human rights model under the UN convention on the Rights Of Persons With Disabilities. Absolutely disfigurement should be covered and the medical reality of a disfigurement also is often disregarded. So, you know, needing to take time off for surgeries, treatments, laser, someone’s eyesight might be affected, someone’s hearing might be affected, but it just- It doesn’t fit that kind of cookie cutter, box, like physical impairment, you know, wheelchair logo type, societal definition of a disability. And that is causing problems across people’s lives. As I said, legally and socially.
Sam: But I mean there are many barriers, as you said, you mentioned the social model, attitudinal barriers are without a doubt, irrespective of someone’s impairment or condition, that that’s the biggest barrier because you can remove physical barriers. You can remove informational and communicational barriers quite effectively if you know how. But you can’t change the heart and minds of people to be like, “Hey! Stop being ableist.” You know, you might not even know what ableism means. And you- You know, you speak a lot about representation in the media and how we still go down this really harmful narrative of, you know, villain or evil, you know, someone who- With a disability has to be evil or the monster. Where do we need to go from here, then? What needs to change?
Phyllida: Well, yeah, you’ve hit the nail on the head. So in the past couple of years, we’ve seen time and time again scars and other facial differences played out on our screens as an indicator of the villainous person. The last Bond film, I think, had three different villains with disfigurements. And they’ve been called out on it time and time again and they refuse to acknowledge. And this is another example of, I think, where perhaps things might have moved forward in terms of wider disability representation. But when it comes to disfigurement, it is still not regarded in the same sense as a disability might be and it absolutely needs to change. And we, of course, every time there is a film that is playing out this negative trope, we shout out about it. We encourage the community to do so but we’re just not getting the attention that we feel it deserves. We at Face Equality International have a position paper on representation in the arts because obviously this goes for Hollywood, it goes for TV, it goes for on stage. I mean, think back to The Phantom Of The Opera, for example, which is being played across the world on stages constantly right now. And it doesn’t help. It just- This stuff lasts for generations. So Scar in The Lion King, for example, is literally called Scar. The Witches! Yeah. And again, The Witches was an interesting one because it was Anne Hathaway’s character wasn’t it who had both a limb difference and facial scarring and alopecia. So no hair. And there was this big outcry from the community which resulted in an apology from Anne Hathaway and Warner Brothers about the limb difference. There was no acknowledgment as to the alopecia community and the, you know, the scar community. So there seems to be, again, this perception and disfigurement sits within the obscurities of like the spectrum of disability and appearance and doesn’t quite neatly fit within either one of those boxes. And that’s where we take the approach that we believe this is an equality issue within its own right. But the law has a lot of catching up to do. And so does society. So yeah, we always shout about films and we have a position paper on our website which outlines all of the research, all of the, you know, lived experience. There’s beautiful poems in there from members of the community. We have a Hollywood task force going on right now with different kind of academics and people that are trying to move the dial and influence, you know, the film and TV industry but it feels very slow and it is one of those parts of my job that feels like we’re shouting into a void nine times out of ten.
Sam: But you’re not. You’re doing amazing things, you know, I’m in awe of you. We’ve loved hearing from you today. You’re always welcome back here. And we will definitely go out for sushi. But before you go, what is on the horizon? What have you got up your sleeve? I know you probably have got NDAs coming out of all of your- I’m not going to say the word. All of your areas, but what can you- What can you share? Can we get, like, an inside scoop before you leave us?
Phyllida: There is a beauty brand that I can’t say the name of that we have partnered with for Face Equality Week, and our newest patron, Nikki Lilly. If you don’t know who she is, she’s got about 9M TikTok followers.
Sam: She’s incredible!
Phyllida: Yeah. She’s just become our patron and we’ve done a photoshoot with her and this beauty brand and five other members of the facial difference community, that will be coming out soon. We want to do something around AI and we’ve been approached by another big brand so artificial intelligence, impact on people who look different. Facial recognition software does not work. It discriminates. It’s biased. It causes lots of physical, real life barriers. This is the thing- It’s a physical barrier caused by bias. So we want to do something around that and if you’ve ever experienced bias through AI, please reach out to Face Equality International. And then yeah, Face Equality Week just around the corner and then going back to the UN whenever we can.
Sam: And on social media, what are your handles?
Phyllida: @faceequalityint across Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok. We’re still on Twitter.
Sam: X.
Phyllida: I refuse to call it X but yeah.
Sophie: Phyllida thank you so much. It’s been so fantastic speaking to you. Really insightful conversation. There was one question I did have. I know Charlotte’s looking at me. Sorry. Really quickly. Just your advice for self-love because you did speak about it at the beginning and for listeners out there who may be struggling with some- With self-love at the moment, one piece of advice.
Phyllida: Yeah, I would say that it is a constant battle. It’s a constant journey. Life throws something at you. You think you’ve got self-love and then another traumatic life event happens. So I would say that, you know, it is an up and down and that is okay.You do not have to love yourself every single day. And the more that you can find parts of yourself that you love that are not about your appearance for example. You know, we are constantly battling with our bodies for a number. A number of different reasons, whether or not you have a disability and that is really difficult. So it is a constant change and you have to really put the work in- Yeah, it- The ups and downs of it all, you just have to embrace the highs and the lows.
Sam: Amazing.
Sophie: Lovely.
Sam: As always.
Sophie: Thank you so much for your time today. Take care. So we’re back with the first car chat of season two. Samantha!
Sam: This is what you’ve all been waiting for. Have you missed me?
Matt: I really have. I’ve really missed this.
Sam: Are you ready? Are you ready? Car chat with Matt! Wow!
Matt: Have you had lessons since?
Sam: Know what? I just think the new space. I can project my voice.
Matt: The acoustics.
Sam: I have been practicing in the shower though, Matt.
Matt: It shows! That was excellent! Best one so far.
Sam: Mariah Carey, eat your heart out.
Matt: Oh, it’s fantastic. I enjoyed that.
Sam: You’re welcome.
Matt: What are we talking about today? Okay, so today I’m talking about the Callum eVITA which is- It’s a concept eWAV that was designed by Ian Callum’s design firm, Callum, in collaboration with MOTOPS (Motability Operations). So what does that mean? And why do we care? So why-
Sam: Why do we care Matt?
Matt: Let’s start with the obvious one. An eWAV, for someone that doesn’t know what that is, is an electronic WAV and a WAV is a wheelchair accessible vehicle. So the reason this is important is Ian Callum is a bit of a big deal in the car industry. So for car nerds like me, he’s a huge name. He’s been sort of head of design for companies such as Aston Martin, Jaquar, Ford. He even designed one of my favourite cars I’ve ever owned. He designed the first Ford Puma. So he’s a big deal. So the fact that he’s got himself involved in this and he’s interested in looking at an accessible vehicle design is actually quite cool. So the reason this is important is there’s about 34,000 WAVs on the road currently in the UK. People need them to get from A to B. They’re very important. The issue is, as we move closer to electric cars, converting an electric car into a WAV is a bit more difficult. I won’t send you to sleep with the technicalities of that, but-
Sam: Yes, but I’m remember- Because we have to drop the-
Matt: That’s it. Yeah.
Sam: I remember from last series, you have to drop the base on the floor.
Matt: Yeah.
Sam: The floor. And that, you know. Yeah.
Matt: Hey, you’ve got it. You can’t just cut a chunk out of the battery to make room for a ramp. So yeah, that’s the problem. So what we’ve kind of done here is, Ian Callum’s sort of taken a look at this with his design firm. And for what can we do if inclusive design principles are applied from the very start. So rather than sort of going, “Oh, here’s what we’ve got, let’s try and make this more accessible.” Let’s do this properly from the start and make a proper you know.
Sam: Prototype.
Matt: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So what they’ve done is there’s things like they’ve repositioned the battery so that the floor in the back can be kept flat and that means whoever’s in the back in the wheelchair can actually move around more freely. They’re not on a slope which is a bit awkward to sort of move. So you’ve got a bit more autonomy. But also, they’ve looked at things like the ride height. So the height of the vehicle itsel fis a bit lower. Which means some people in WAVs complain that they’re a bit too high up and you feel a bit- You can feel a bit carsick because you’re like- eah, you’re a bit of sort of floaty and wobbly and a bit high up. Often you’re not at the same height as the other people who are sat in the vehicle as well so they’ve sort of adjusted it so that A you’re sat at a similar height to everyone else in the car and B it’s not too high. So it gets rid of that sort of floaty car sickness feeling that you can get in a-In a huge WAV. But they’ve also done things like looked at including two charging points, so two at different heights, one at the front, one at the back. So one of them is much closer to the ground. So if you were in a wheelchair, you’ve not got lift these heavy chargers a high to get it in. There’s lots of other sort of really clever touches as well. So, the rear of the car where you’d come in, it’s a split tailgate. So what happens is the back of the car sort of splits in half, and the top half lifts up as a roof. So if it’s raining while you’re getting in the car, shield you from the rain. Keep your hair nice.
Sam: Like a Lamborghini! Not like a Lamborghini.
Matt: Well, not quite, but it does look cool. Yeah, so that splits so it’s- There’s a nice low angle ramp which makes it easy to get into the car but also you’re sort of shielded from the elements briefly while you’re getting yourself in, which is a nice touch. But also one of the other frequent complaints among people with WAVs is that people don’t leave enough space behind you to get in, so you can’t get the ramp out, or maybe you can get the ramp up, but it’s not enough room to actually go up it and get into the car. So they’ve included this clever LED sort of projection that sort of low wattage so it can stay on for a long time and not drain the battery but it projects onto the floor the space that is required for the person to be able to get in through the ramp at the back of the car. So when it’s parked, you know exactly where you shouldn’t be parking. And it makes it a lot easier for everyone to leave enough space.
Sam: Does it actually say “Do not park behind me.”
Matt: I think in the concept, it’s almost like, if I remember correctly, it’salmost like a graphic of a sort of wheelchair and-
Sam: Oh I would want “Park at your own danger.” You know what I mean. “At your own peril!”
Matt: “Peril.” But it’s quite- Yeah, it’s quite a good idea that, you know, you get a good visual because I don’t think people- People appreciate the space that’s actually needed.
Sam: Yeah.
Matt: And that makes things really, really difficult for people who then return, can’t get in their car and have to wait for someone to come back in order to be able to get in. So that’s good. There is- They’ve thought about- A bit more about having the sort of wheelchair passenger a bit more involved inside the car as well. So what they’ve got is- This is what they call the movable utility bar in the in the sort of back. So you actually have control over things like the heating and climate controls. So traditionally, obviously, the wheelchair would come in and sit just behind the front row. You can’t actually reach any of the controls yourself. So you know, you have to constantly ask someone to adjust the temperature and all that kind of thing. But actually by having this sort of utility bar with controls on it, you can control that stuff yourself, which is great. Gives you a bit more independence, save you constantly asking someone for that. But it also gives you access to the infotainment controls for the car so you can put on like whatever music you want to do, adjust the radio, sync your phone up and play podcasts or put on your playlist, da da da da, which is very cool. And there’s lots of other little nice bits in there like, you know, charging points, wireless charger for your phone, places to sort of hang your stuff and, you know, they’ve actually thought about making it a useful, usable space.
Sam: And good for the environment. I mean, that’s the biggest-
Matt: Yes.
Sam: You know, perk, really? Let’s face it.
Matt: Absolutely. I mean if we’re moving towards electric cars, we, you know, you absolutely have to make sure that people aren’t left behind. It has to be- EVs have to be accessible for everyone. Otherwise, you know, the whole thing falls down.
Sam: It is interesting every time I mention my own journey of getting a WAV car, which is still happening and more on that at a later date, but a lot of people straight away say, “Oh, but it’s not going to be electric though, is it?” And I’m like, don’t make me feel bad about it. Like I want to be independent. So this is wonderful news.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It’s very cool. And one of the other things that is far less important, but one of the other things it addresses is they thought about the proportions of the car. So a lot of the time, if you have a WAV, you end up needing to have a much bigger car than you actually need. But it’s just because that size is what’s needed to accommodate all the extra bits that come with a WAV. Whereas, because they thought of this from the ground up, it’s actually a much smaller footprint-
Sam: Nice.
Matt: Than a traditional WAV so you’re not getting a bigger car than you need, doesn’t take up loads of space, but also just looks cool, like it’s a cool looking car rather than the van that’s effectively being converted. It’s actually a nice, cool looking, you know, aspirational model.
Sam: And that’s really important because when I- Before I actually moved to London, I started the process, so many, many years ago. One of my biggest hang ups, because I still had a lot of insecurities about my disability, was I didn’t want to have a huge, cumbersome, you know, vehicle. All my friends from college had cute little Minis and like, you know, like little Audi TTs and all. Yeah, I know Audi TTs. But they did, you know, they had all these like funky little cars. And then when I went to a showroom, I mean it is- It was what it was, but I felt embarrassed as a teenager. As a 17,18 year old, I was like I don’t want a van. Sorry. You know, I don’t and I appreciate that’s what was on the market. But I actually stopped the process because I just didn’t, at the time, I didn’t have that confidence, you know, and I think that is important. Like inclusive design doesn’t have to lose its aesthetic.
Matt: Absolutely. That’s the thing. It should- It should still be a car. You know, it’s an attractive car. People like- People buy cars for their looks. There’s no reason why that shouldn’t be any, you know-
Sam: Different.
Matt: Shouldn’t be anything else for anyone else. Yeah. So yeah, it’s a really cool idea. And the fact that, you know, it’s got someone that big behind it means that it was reported in all of the mainstream automotive media. So places like Autocar, What Car? All the big- CarMax reported this, were like, “Oh, look at this cool thing that’s come up.” So it was just a nice- It’s only a concept. It’s not something that’s necessarily going to be built anytime soon. But the idea was it was a bit of a call to action to the industry, you know, from a real figurehead in the world of automotive design to say come on, we need to be thinking about this stuff like it shouldn’t be an afterthought. We need to plan ahead and think about how to make these vehicles accessible from the start. And to have it reported to, you know, all sorts of car enthusiasts. It’s great because it gets them interested in a problem that they might not have known existed. So yeah, I thought it was just a nice- A nice bit of exposure.
Sam: Absolutely!
Sophie: Thanks Matt! That was really interesting. Thank you. And that’s it for the first episode of season two of The Motability Lifestyle Pod. Back like we never left. Thanks to our Producer, Charlotte Mason at Insanity Studios and her team including Saffron Mirza and Abi Sandler and Editorial Assistant Lucie Rhodes at Wonderly.
Sophie: If you like this episode, click Follow or Subscribe, tell all your friendsand please leave a review and rating if you’re listening or like and comment if you’re watching. If you want to tell us what you thought or if there’s something you’d like to hear, come and say hello on Instagram @Motability_Lifestyle_Mag. And for some behind-the-scenes content, follow us on TikTok @motlifestylemag. You can also watch the full video on YouTube with captions and BSL. You can find us on @MotabilityLifestyleMagazine. And finally, if you want more information about the Motability scheme, go to motability.co.uk or if you want to learn more about the Motability Foundation, visit motabilityfoundation.org.uk. And that’s it I’m afraid. I am Samantha Renke.
Sophie: And I’m Sophie-Marie Odum.
Sam: See you next time.
Sophie: Bye.
